CIO: And let's talk just for a moment about your relationship with Mule. What drove you to bring Mule into your architectural mix, how are you using it, what benefits do you feel you're getting, and what challenges have you encountered with it?

Ciurana: Okay. That's a loaded question. Basically, I was working for this very large retailer. I was commissioned with other people to build also the next generation of e-commerce systems for those guys. At the time we were building our stuff, we identified that we needed some kind of ESB technology. We ran a number of proof of concepts with every vendor you can imagine, both open source and commercial. We set up a couple of SOAP servers for them and said, "Okay, here's everything. Here's what we need. Here's the timeframe that you have. Let's see what we get."

During that evaluation, we learned a lot. We ended up liking the Mule product, and we really liked one of the commercial guys. The difference is the commercial guy, just for the basic licenses, was going to cost something like $350,000. We said, 'Forget it. Too expensive.'

We decided Mule was the way to go, and we ran with it. Eventually I wound up [leaving the retailer and] going to Leapfrog. And when I got here, I decided to do another SOA. Mule looked good, and by then they had a real company behind it. They had the ability to provide support and training. So we brought them in, first on a limited basis, with a couple of servers. We got what we expected, or better, so we decided to go for the enterprise license and make a big commitment. In general, working with the Mule software has been both exhilarating and frustrating. The implementation has always been its weaker link.

CIO: So explain to the readers the role that Mule serves in the architecture, and then give us an example of an implementation problem that you encountered that you needed to get resolved.

Ciurana: Okay. Well, basically, Mule connects everything—our back-end systems, databases, partners; all of our connective product, absolutely everything that's happening in the Web environment, is going through Mule. Everything. If two boxes, two systems, that talk to each other in any shape or fashion, that's going through Mule. So if something breaks, that means that my whole environment dies. I mean, that's mission-critical, right?

So one of the things that we had a problem with—this is going to get a little technical—in one of the protocols that we were passing through, the front end and the back end, we found that some of the bits were not working. I mean, this is pretty obscure. I got on the phone with MuleSource at roughly 4:00 in the afternoon, and I said, "We just found the problem. We need to fix it. I need to have it fixed by 8:00 in the morning tomorrow because this needs to go to staging. We're pushing it out the day after tomorrow. So I need it now." And, sure enough, within an hour, I had one of their consultants working with us. By 9:00 we had found the issue was caused by a combination of something they did in the product and something we did in our code. By 11:30 at night we had fixed the problem. By 8:00 in the morning we were able to push this staging. Everyone is happy.

CIO: Great. I really appreciate the time you spent talking to us today, Eugene. It's been really interesting

Ciurana: You, too, sir. Bye-bye.

CIO: I'll check back with you at the end of the 18 months.

Ciurana: [laugh] Well, the end of the 18 months is October 3rd, so . . . you'll actually be able to see the finished product.

CIO: Fantastic. I'll look for the press release on the wire, and then maybe I'll have to pick up a Leapfrog toy for my kids, and we'll check the whole thing out.

Ciurana: [laughs] Okay.